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July 30, 2014 9:25 pm

Col. Richard Kemp: Israeli Pilot Aborted Gaza Strike 17 Times to Protect Civilians – Jewish People Should be Proud of the State of Israel (INTERVIEW)

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Retired Colonel Richard Kemp, former commander of British Forces in Afghanistan.

Retired Colonel Richard Kemp, former commander of British Forces in Afghanistan.

Having just returned from another tour of Sderot and discussions with Israeli soldiers at the staging area near Gaza, Col (ret.) Richard Kemp, the former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, sat down for an interview with The Algemeiner.

Deborah Danan: Why do you think the international community expresses such vociferous objection to IDF actions in Gaza?

Col Richard Kemp: Well, the starting point for so much of the world’s media, opinion-makers, political leaders, NGOs, human rights groups, will always be that whatever Israel does is wrong. It’s seen as oppressor of Palestinians, illegal occupiers – even of Gaza despite the withdrawal nine years ago – then already your starting point is at a disadvantage. Then add that to the fact that the Israeli military operations against Hamas inevitably include civilian casualties. The reason for that is because Hamas use as a key element – possibly the key element of their strategy – human shields. They want to lure and force Israel to kill civilians. And so you see images of dead babies, dead boys on the beach, women screaming about their children, and no reality can overcome those images. It’s understandable in a way, because it is heart-wrenching, I’ve seen firsthand what shrapnel can do to a baby, and it’s horrifying, and the problem is that there’s no reference, no open-mindedness to the fact that the only reason that these children have been killed is because of Hamas’ aggression towards Israel.

DD: Do you have any recommendations as to what Israel could do to change these perceptions?

RK: Israel is doing to a large extent what it can; obviously it’s got to have efficient and slick media operations to counter the distortions that are so common in the international media. But of course Israel is at a disadvantage there too because while Israel might understand the need to come out with a rapid rebuttal or message of the truth of what’s happening in the conflict, it still has to be utterly faithful to facts and cannot afford to get it wrong, or to exaggerate. Hamas, on the other hand, can say whatever they want and it doesn’t get challenged and if it does get challenged it doesn’t matter for them because they’re not accountable to anyone.

To me, the most important effort that Israel can make is not with the masses, rather it’s with the decision makers, the world leaders, after all, it’s their attitude and their understanding that will shape the way the West sees Israel.

DD: What specific steps do the US and the UK take to avoid civilian casualties?

RK: They have restrictive rules of engagement in conflicts where there is a risk of civilians getting killed, for example in Iraq, Afghanistan and Northern Ireland. They take strenuous efforts to ensure the minimum loss of life of civilian populations, including surveillance to verify the presence or absence or civilians, using appropriate munitions – that is, not dropping massive bombs if there’s a risk of killing nearby civilians, and sometimes the army might choose to go in on the ground to avoid the collateral damage from  airstrikes. Or for example, if you would attack an objective with all guns blazing, but you think that there might be civilians in the area, you might choose not to fire until you’re sure there is a positive enemy target, which of course puts your troops at a disadvantage, but it’s a risk you take to preserve human life.

Three days ago I spoke to an Israeli pilot that told me that the same morning he had aborted an enemy target a total of 17 times because there were civilians in the target zone, and eventually he abandoned the operation. I asked him, was that not frustrating? His answer was simply no. And that to me, is one of the best things about the IAF – that the last very thing they want to do is bomb a target and have that on their conscience for the rest of their lives. And it was the same thing with infantry soldiers. I spoke to soldiers who have been fighting in Gaza, and several of them said to me: ‘We know what the rules of engagement are but even without them, it is always on our minds that we cannot kill civilians.’ See for them, this has nothing to do with orders, it’s just always there at the forefront. We’re talking about [reservists who are] simply artists, metal-workers, musicians, they are not killers. They have absolutely no desire to kill civilians. In fact, in terms of civilian casualties, the attitude of IDF solders is the exact mirror image of the way they’re portrayed to the world.

DD: Tell us some more about the civilian to combatant ratio in conflicts since the Second World War.

RK: Since WWII, the average has been 3 civilians dying for every fighter killed. In some conflicts that number is higher, 4 or 5 civilians dead for every combatant. In Operation Cast Lead and Pillar of Defense it was 1-to-1 – and that’s a figure that has been agreed upon by the Palestinians as well.  Obviously, I can’t tell you what the ratio will be of this operation because it’s not at the end. What is discouraging though, is the willingness of media to simply report the number of civilians killed in Gaza and how many are children – figures which only come from Palestinian medical authorities which are controlled by Hamas. I don’t know if they’re true or not, but you have to make an assumption given Hamas’ track record for falsification of the numbers of casualties. It is however, quite possible that when this conflict ends we will see that the ration is more than 1-to-1, and if that is the case it is likely to be attributed to two things, one is what Hamas learned in Pillar of Defense and Cast Lead in the way to better protect and hide their fighters and weapons from Israeli airstrikes, including in underground tunnels, and number two, they know from Pillar of Defense just how much traction you get from killing civilians – and of course they want to capitalize on that.

DD: In your estimation, how much damage has Hamas inflicted from rockets that fall short and end up within Gaza’s borders?

RK: I don’t know – I couldn’t possibly estimate what it amounts to in total. But obviously, we’ve just seen that rockets fired by Hamas have landed on Al Shifa hospital and Al Shati refugee camp. There’s no doubt that their munitions falling short are causing significant civilian casualties.

DD: What’s the British attitude to the war with Gaza and do you think it’s changed over the last few operations?

RK: I think that the people in Britain have been heavily influenced by the photographs of dead children, by Hamas propaganda which incidentally includes of course, falsified photos of dead children – including photographs of dead Israeli children who are portrayed as dead Palestinian children. The Fogel family was attributed as a Palestinian family. To show you the stupidity of the people that do it, in the picture you can actually see a menorah. That sort of stuff influences the British people, plus the strident voices of many of the Muslim population in England who are outraged by the number of their Muslim brethren being killed in Gaza – yet who seem to have no outrage by the 190,000 killed in Syria. No protests, no outrage there, nothing. The attitude of the British public as a whole is negative. However, the attitude of the prime minister [David Cameron] has been much more supportive than we’ve seen in the two other conflicts in Gaza. However, I think that the British abstention in the vote of the resolution of the UNHRC in condemning Israel and investigating war crimes is an act of moral cowardice by Great Britain, and one which undermines the otherwise strong support given by the government to Israel. When political leaders tell Israel to take more steps to reduce civilian casualties – thereby inferring that Israel is not doing enough and is somehow happy to cause civilian casualties – that kind of message encourages Hamas to continue their strategy of human shields and furthermore, encourages other extremist groups around the world to follow the same strategy. And that leads to the death of innocent people. Ban Ki Moon is guilty of this, David Cameron is guilty of it, Barack Obama is guilty of it.

DD: How has the British army in Afghanistan gained from the Israeli army’s expertise?

RK: There are a number of elements that Britain has taken from the Israeli army. One of which is methods of reducing civilian casualties that we’ve seen in operation since Afghanistan, where Britain has adopted tactics like leaflet dropping on targets with potential civilians in the area. British soldiers lives have also been saved by Israeli battlefield medical technology and also by Israeli counter-bomb technology, that is, technological equipment that stops or detects improvised explosive devices like roadside bombs. British soldiers’ lives in Afghanistan have been saved and are being saved by that technology. Beyond that, British and Israeli intelligence cooperation is extremely tight and that has saved the lives not just of soldiers but of British civilians as well. By the way, British soldiers and ex-soldiers strongly support Israel and the IDF because unlike many civilians, they understand the threat that Israel faces they understand the tactics used by Hamas and they understand what the IDF have to do to deal with Hamas because those same tactics are used by the Taliban and in response, British soldiers have to use the tactics of the IDF to fight them.

DD: Finally, do you have a message to the Jewish People?

RK: I would say that the Jewish people should be extremely proud of the state of Israel, they should try their best to disregard the terrible anti-Israeli propaganda that is designed solely to contribute to the conspiracy to exterminate the state of Israel – I myself, am personally outraged by the shocking anti-Semitic violence and verbal attacks that have been triggered by this conflict against Jews, especially in Paris and Germany, but also in Britain and other countries – it’s absolutely despicable and should be fought by authorities as vigorously as possible.

Israel is the one country in the western world today that is standing up for its morality and for its values against the onslaught of international jihad.

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  • Rory

    What about a question asking him ‘What do you have to say to the Arab people’? The people that may be killed because of him soon because of the actions of Hamas



  • Christopher Field

    Thank you for your educated opinions on the actions of the Israel Defense Force in a combat situation. It is my hope that others will read your experiences and reputation into their own narrative while seeking the balance of truth as we must all try to do for ourselves. The internet does provide a forum for both the educated and uneducated, the experienced and inexperienced. I believe we all have the responsibility to search for the truth.

    Thank you for stating your opinions publicly.

    I trust the experienced more than the propagandist and your reputation supports my belief in your statements.

  • David Pletts

    Thank you Col. Kemp for your open and completely truthful ‘de facto’ appraisal of the situation in Israel. As a totally committed, Christian believer, our lives are deeply linked to the Jewish people. Hence the need for our support and absolute ‘standing shoulder to shoulder’ with Israel. My personal involvement in Israel, in humble capacity, over a lengthy period of time, as a Gentile, taught me resilience and integrity, for which I am very grateful. Despite the passage of time, in my own life, I have had the privilege of revisiting Israel with my wife on a number of occasions, since my first involvement in 1974. Since then, the amazing strides that this beleaguered country has achieved in the midst of a hostile world, should be an example to all, of what can be achieved with so little. Woe betide us, that as a ‘civilized’ people, we should ever abandon the Jewish people again. If we do not learn from history, we are destined to repeat the same mistakes. Let us stand firm in the face of adversity. David Pletts, South Africa.

  • I don’t agree with him because I believe the Zionists want the the Gazans REMOVED COMPLETELY and this crisis is part of a strategy of genocide that is ongoing and the condemnation of the world only slows down the process…Having said that ,I understand WHY he holds these views as he has spent no time in Gaza and plenty in Israel among fellow soldiers.The real giveaway is where he says:” There are a number of elements that Britain has taken from the Israeli army. One of which is methods of reducing civilian casualties that we’ve seen in operation since Afghanistan, where Britain has adopted tactics like leaflet dropping on targets with potential civilians in the area. British soldiers lives have also been saved by Israeli battlefield medical technology and also by Israeli counter-bomb technology, that is, technological equipment that stops or detects improvised explosive devices like roadside bombs. British soldiers’ lives in Afghanistan have been saved and are being saved by that technology. Beyond that, British and Israeli intelligence cooperation is extremely tight and that has saved the lives not just of soldiers but of British civilians as well. By the way, British soldiers and ex-soldiers strongly support Israel and the IDF because unlike many civilians, they understand the threat that Israel faces they understand the tactics used by Hamas and they understand what the IDF have to do to deal with Hamas because those same tactics are used by the Taliban and in response, British soldiers have to use the tactics of the IDF to fight them.” …..He HAS to be complicit or he condemns HIMSELF!

    • First of all, Colonel Kemp has been in Gaza, and so have I. I also speak Hebrew and Arabic, and have read the Hamas and Hezbollah charters, you should too, there are translations of it on the net, although sanitised for the Westerners. Those charters never speak of peace, they all command the complete destruction of
      Israel, they say it in every speech they make, in Arabic, they indoctrinate their children to love death and dream of being “shahids” martyrs by killing Jews.

    • jeb

      The problem with your theory is Hamas a violent radical Islamist group that instead of using resources to build Gazan Palestinian infrastructure buys rockets and missiles and initiated the last two violent confrontations by launching over 4,000 missiles to murder all Jews in Israel. You advocate aggression by Palestinians instead of moving them towards more peaceful solutions because you advocate a one state solution? The eradication of Israel, Jews, and Christians?

  • Many thanks to the Algeminer and in particular to Col.Kemp for a reasoned, clear, and informative interview.
    It should be diseminated throughout the Western European countries, but especially among American Jews who have remained deafly silent during this difficult period for Israel.
    How to get this message out and heard, in a world with a long history of anti-Jewish acts and heavily influenced by the vast number of Arabs and Muslims is the 64 thousand dollar question.
    Colonel Kemp you have given me a sense that perhaps we Jews do have some friends in the world of Gentiles.

  • Seth

    Some simple math on the age structure of the casualties in Gaza suggests that Operation Protective Edge will also have a 1:1 civilian to combatant ratio. Math vs. Anti-Semitic Propaganda:

  • klaudie

    thanks colonel I am surprised that people are wondering if somebody shoot at you you shoot back and also people should know history it is not history of your people it is world history

  • Guila Holder

    Thank you Colonel Kemp for your fairness and clarity.
    May God bless you and your family with good health and happiness always.

  • NuritGn

    Clarity is most important in in a war, bit when Israel fights the brightest clarity is required. Only that Israel’s enemy and that includes the UN has made up their mind the moment the first photo of a Gazan child killed appeared. They will never give Israel credit where credit is due and never blame Israel’s enemy, in this case Hamas, for war after war they have started and Israel found herself having to defend herself.

  • anna forbes

    Thankyou Colonel Kemp. Your words clearly come from a heart of wisdom coupled with your experience. God Bless you for speaking so honestly and being a much needed voice of clarity.

  • Natalie Pearce

    Thank you, Col. Kemp, for your wonderfully clear and supportive comments. If only more people could see the situation as you do. Please share your views as widely as possible- Israel needs more friends like you, who speak the unbiased truth based on wisdom and experience. The world is so quick to judge Israel, when, as you say, other atrocities go ignored. You also recognise the true dangers of Israel’s enemy, and how cleverly they manipulate the media. Here in the UK, we desperately need to hear your voice. Thank you.

  • Georgette

    Few leadership voices today have a true moral compass…Col.Kemp does and articulates his position with clarity and fearlessness. He is on a Board with other non-Jewish leaders who have voiced their unwavering support for Israel, like President Aznar of Spain and more of Israel’s true friends – see this link

  • Mike Hamblett

    What an astonishing, laughable peice of popaganda.A desperate deception but completely unbelievable. You are just making things worse.

  • T.C.

    God bless Col. Kemp. Yes, why is it that these sorts of interviews only appear in Algemeiner and not on the world channels?

  • Peter

    Col. Kemp, you are a hero to me. Seriously. THANK YOU for your support of Israel. THANK YOU!

  • Stand Up

    Normal people don’t take pride in weakness, incompetence, and the inability to do the job they were hired for. To save enemy civilians at the expense of Israeli’s(soldiers or civilians) is treason, regardless of the political spin/English. And most already know which corrupt politician mismanaging Israel’s govt routinely commit crimes against the Jewish people. Whether it is destroying Jewish homes or other schemes to oppress & violate the basic human rights of Jews.

  • helene

    Why oh why is this interview with Col. Kemp not diffused to the world press. Why is he not being interviewed on the
    BBC and the worlds media? Wonderful though it is
    Algemeiner is read by a tiny minority of people.
    The world is not listening and the truth is turned
    to dust.

  • Nancy Williams

    Insanity is making the same mistake over and over again. Israel gave land for peace. Did she get it? NO! Israel gave money & materials to Palestine to rebuild it’s infrastructures. Did they? NO! Instead they built tunnels into Israel to anniliate her! Israel agreed to a ceasefire for humanitarian reasons. Did she get it? NO! No more mistakes Israel! Enough is enough! You are blessed & highly favored of God, Israel! We love you & don’t want to see you abused & humiliated anymore!!

  • Nancy Williams

    Congratulations to the news reporters that have come forward & told the truth once they were out of harm’s way! What’s hidden in the darkness is revealed in the light! Israel is a God-fearing country & should be an example of humanitarianism to the world! What other country gives advance warning to the enemy of when & where they’re going to bomb in order to save civilian lives! This is a war between good & evil, right & wrong, love & hate, truth & lies with Israel honoring God & Hamas glorifying satan!!

  • James Cheetham

    Right with you in every word there, Colonel. From ex-heli pilot (GDP RAF), Borneo, NI & SAF Dhofar.

  • Fred Van Enk

    I am just back from a trip through Israel, experiencing first hand the successes achieved by Israel. All what Israel wants is to live in peace with their neighbours, so they can work undisturbed on the further development of their beautiful and successful country. I also met several Palestinians when in Jerusalem. Palestinians are people just like you and me, who want the same as Israel: to live peacefully together with their neighbours. So what is the problem? It is quite clearly the warmongering and hate preaching tactics of terrorist
    organisations such as Hamas and other assorted jihadist groups, whose only ambition seems to be the total destruction
    of anyone who disagrees with their views, with the state of Israel their prime target. It is hard to see peace prevailing in the Middle East as long as these attitudes continue to prevail.

    of anyone who does not conform to their views. And they hate
    Israel in particular as that country is a symbol of national pride and success, built on democratic principles. This in my view is the prime reason of the current and past conflicts. As long as this attitude prevails it is hard to see a solution. Which self-respecting nation does not have the right to defend itself, and its very existence, against such threats. This war is not against the people of Gaza, it is the result of Israel defending itself against constant terrorist attacks on its territory and its people. Fred van Enk, Melbourne, Australia.

  • Barry Newman

    What an incredible man. My hat is off to him! When the rest of the world is condemning Israel and the IDF for its so called “atrocities” he is one of the few who has consistently stood up and been counted to tell the truth and to support Israel for the job that he knows is necessary and that it is doing to the best of its abilities. I am reminded of the “righteous Gentiles” from the Shoah. They did not have to stand up for the Jews, they even were threatened with their lives for helping the Jews but they did it nonetheless because it was the right thing. THis man deserves to be counted as one of the righteous among the nations. Were there more like him, perhaps there would be no need for people like him. However, still the Jews find themselves alone in the world, castigated merely because they are defending themselves and trying to survive in that hostile world. What a sad realization. Am Yisroel Chai.

  • Weinman

    I appreciate Col Kemp’s support for Israel but there is a gross misunderstanding of the Palestinian struggle being compared to International Jihad. I hate any form of terrorist and I hope and pray that all terrorism against any civilians anywhere in the world stops. What you see around the world of “jihad” is not jihad. It is group of misguided people who have found no structure or success in their lives and have used the palestinian struggle to justify twisting certain sayings from their holy book to meet some of their aims. The palestinian people that are trapped in the ghetto concentration camp of gaza just want peace and survival, very much like the desperate jews in poland who were so terribly subjected to a very similar fate only 70 yrs ago. Do you not learn from your own recent history? Was it not fair for the jews of the polish ghettos to fight back in some shape or form? People will resist when they are strangled and they will do it in whatever way they can. Encourage YOUR OWN leaders to stop that stranglehold and then maybe you will see the reduction in the numbers of terrorist that are formed with a “jihad” agenda. You need to coexist with palestinians and muslims, it will not work with your foot on your neighbours’ necks.

  • Thank you Colonel Kemp. thank you for being brave enough to tell the truth, a rare and gallant action in the current times. An officer and a gentleman
    With love to you from Jerusalem

  • Yoel Nitzarim

    Here I am in Jerusalem reading and attempting to glean something new from this man that can help me better understand why we Jewish Israelis are so hated. What i have taken away from the interview is that it rests more in our own hands what we think of ourselves–that is, our own self-concept–that counts, more so than our self-image. I, for one, know that my brothers and sisters here care a great deal about the lives of all human beings because that is the way we are raised, even though the majority of us are secular and not religious. The Jewish ethos from days of yore is based on the value, sanctity, and dignity of every living creature, especially the human being, G-d’s most prized creation. I guess that whatever is said about us, the bottom line is to believe in ourselves as decent, respectful, caring, altruistic, imperfect, vulnerable human beings whose mission in life is to be a democracy based on Jewish values in a restive, fierce, unforgiving neighborhood.

  • Ben Navon

    Col. Kemp: You are a light in today’s darkness, perpetrated by evil people. To tell a small lie will convince thousands; to tell a big lie will convince millions. Hamas and their ilk are good at fabricating lies and “advising” journos to tell the world what suits them. You know the rest.

    AS well as a genuine person you are fast becoming a hero to the Israeli public and others at large with your honest reporting.
    As someone whose regimental motto was UBIQUE, I salute you.

    Melbourne, Australia

  • Julian Clovelley

    I’d like the Colonel to consider the following. A blockade, whether there for good reason or not, is likely to result in a de facto “occupation”. It turns a city into a concentration camp, and it is this atmosphere that increases extremists’ power. This equation applies to the Gaza Strip. You might in fact claim it has applied to other territories in the past such as Cuba

    The occupation of the West Bank, and the Settlements, are illegal both under international law and under the Geneva Conventions. In addition they are disapproved of strongly by the United Nations. That is the source of the public perception, which varies from seeing them as a mistakely considered “necessity” that in fact makes matters worse, to being a de facto invasion and colonisation that comprises a Zionist-dominated Israeli Government’s over-riding real agenda – security concerns being only a cover for a continuing campaign to build a greater Israel as an Apartheid State – This latter view is an ugly one, but hard to dispel with the determination to increase Settlement building – the failure to even close rogue Settlements – and the realisation that continuing Settlements equals continuing occupation – all in breach of Geneva Conventions.

    Reports from charities regarded by the rest of the world as impartial, and from Human Rights organisations that, rightly on past record, have gained enormous respect, are very disparaging on the activities of the Israeli occupiers.

    This is not a matter of changing perception it is a matter of both sides changing their behaviour. Both have behaved appallingly.

    Colonel Kemp is a highly honourable and respected soldier. However, as in the case of most military personnel, I see his view of civilian attitudes to be somewhat skewed. Having work for many years alongside military personnel, I find this distortion to be commonplace. Whilst his advice on military matters may well be sound, I do not think his advice on how Israel’s present Government and the Jewish community should deal with public opposition comes from a particularly clear view of civilian attitudes, or an accurate and researched understanding of the underlying historical, ideological, and emotional problems

    If you have never worked with the British Military, you don’t know what the internal atmosphere is like. It is very cloistered. Working as a civilian one has to be very careful not to step out of line. Matters cannot be openly discussed. The military is shut off from day to day reality in a cocoon that is heavily guarded by such as Special Investigation Branch operatives, who listen in to conversations in bars and cafes, and off duty clubs, and step in if they feel that any discussion exceeds their imposed limits, shutting such conversation down. The military is wonderful to work with, but it is very far from a free atmosphere – ever. As such it is not an area in which the most honourable and competent soldier is likely to attain a universally applicable worldview. The SIB is a necessity in the military of a nuclear power, no question of that, but is does impose on the development of individual opinion, forcing an almost juvenile thinking pattern. Battles are best fought in an imagined black and white.

    If I wanted a military opinion I would certainly ask Colonel Kemp – hopefully over a few beers and in a friendly atmosphere.

    But truly I would not be asking him questions relating to non military matters. If you want to know how and why civilians feel do the same with them. Sit down with them over a couple of beers and ask them. You’ll find out.

  • Bernard Kupferschmid

    Note to Retired Colonel Richard Kemp, former commander of British Forces in Afghanistan:

    Kindly accept my personal respect and warm admiration for your transparent and mature moral views that transcend religions and cultures. I wish there were
    many more “Richard Kemp – alike thinking people” in this XXIst Century. It would be a different, better, world…

    We, “Homo-Semi-Sapiens”, are all “cousins” of each other…

    I write to you from the the perspective of my “naturally-biased” personal cultural DNA that has its roots in the dawn of the Hebrew peoplehood. With deep appreciation, I say to you and yours: L’Chaim… Shalom…

  • Emanuel

    Extremely proud of Richard Kemp, the nation of Israel, the state of Israel, IDF and all those fighting to protect our freedom!

  • Moshe

    G-d bless colonel Kemp. The world should be filled with people like him!

  • art

    If only there were more strong moral men like Col. Kemp. He knows the enemy, he knows the battle he knows that at great cost and sacrifice Israel has acted to defend itself and the people of gaza from hamas/islamic jihad et al

  • Seth, USA

    God bless Col. Kemp. Thank you for your moral clarity, friendship, and courage to tell the truth, despite coming from the UK, where the anti-Israel media bias is so strong. I know it would be easier on you if you were from the US, but your willingness to speak truth to power, including calling out PM Cameron’s abstaining, despite hailing from a country of intense anti-Israel media incitement, speaks to how honorable a man you are. Keep up your noble mission, and thank you for all that you do. I type with one hand while saluting you with the other. God bless.

  • Col. Kemp is a refreshing voice of reason in an increasingly amoral world. And Israel’s honorable course of action with “Operation Protective Edge” is unequalled in 21st Century warfare.

    • Alison Margaret Christansen

      I am not politically minded I used to live that to my husband. But there has been on different web sites everybody explaning why Israel is right and Humas is wronge. As a born again Christian and told t pray for Isreal. I can pray with more undstanding. Israel to still has a concins. The civilians use by the Arabs to make Israel the baddy will stop.That Humas members will be distroyed. There is a history on both sides may the Lord grant peace. Protect Israel Lord.